1 STATE OF ILLINOIS
2 SS:
3 COUNTY OF C00K
4 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF COOK COUNTY, ILLINOIS
5 COUNTY DEPARTMENT - LAW DIVISION
6
7 LANDMARK EDUCATION CORPORATION/
8 Plaintiff,
9 VS.
No. 94 L 11478
10 CULT AWARENESS NETWORK,
11 a business of unknown legal
12 character, CYNTHIA KISSER,
13 individually, Agent and
14 Executive Director of the
15 CULT AWARENESS NETWORK,
16 JOHN and JANE DOES 1-50,
17 and Unknown aiders, abettors &
18 co-conspirators,
19 Defendants.
20
21 The deposition of CYNTHIA S. KISSER,
22 called by the Plaintiff for examination, taken
23 pursuant to the provisions of the Code of Civil
24 Procedure and the Rules of the Supreme Court of the
2
1 State of Illinois pertaining to the taking of
2 depositions for the purpose of discovery, taken
3 before LYNN CARTER, a Notary Public within and for
4 the County of Cook, State of Illinois, and a
5 Certified Shorthand Reporter, CSR No. 84-3076, of
6 said state, at Hinshaw & Culbertson's offices, 222
7 -- North LaSalle Street, Third Floor, Deposition Room
8 No. 1, Chicago, Illinois, on the 15th day of May,
9 A.D. 1995, at 10:10 a.m.
1 destructive cult if it is not considered a cult in
2 your opinion?
3 A. Yes, as a matter of fact in my
4 opinion. It's my personal opinion, yes.
5 Q. Is it the opinion of CAN that you can
6 be a destructive cult but not be a cult?
7 A. I don't know.
8 Q. CAN has no position on that?
9 A. Exactly.
10 Q. So with respect to your opinion, is
11 Landmark Education Corporation or the Forum a
12 destructive cult?
13 A. I don't have an opinion on that.
14 Q. Does that mean that you cannot say that
15 it is a destructive cult and you cannot say that it
16 is not a destructive cult?
17 A. Exactly.
18 Q. And that is your personal opinion?
19 A. That's correct.
20 Q. And what is the opinion of CAN with
21 respect to Landmark being a destructive cult?
22 A. It holds forth no opinion.
23 Q. It holds no opinion at all?
24 A. Correct.
419
1 A. Yes, they did.
2 BY MR. LEAF:
3 Q. The same categories?
4 A. The same categories.
5 Q. And the year 1995 so far?
6 A. It's my belief, yes, that's correct.
7 Q. Did those categories exist in 1991 and
8 1992 before 1993 as far as you know?
9 A. I don't know.
10 Q. Do you claim that Landmark is a
11 destructive cult in the religious category?
12 A. No.
13 Q. In the political category?
14 A. No.
15 Q. In the commercial category?
16 A. Do you want my personal opinion or what
17 1believe to be CAN's position?
18 Q. I'll take both.
19 A. Go ahead.
20 Q. Let's start again. Religious?
21 A. No.
22 Q. No for both?
23 A. No for both.
24 Political?
420
1 A. No for both.
2 Q. Commercial?
3 A. My personal opinion is it could be.
4 I'm inconclusive, but no for CAN. CAN holds no
5 position. Let me put it more accurately. CAN
6 holds no position. My position is it could be.
7- Q. Satanic/ritual abuse?
8 A. CAN holds no position. My position is
9 that it is not.
10 Q. New age?
11 A. My position is that it might have
12 elements of it. CAN has no position.
13 Q. And therapy?
14 A. My opinion is it might have elements of
15 it. I have an inconclusive opinion. CAN holds no
16 position.
17 Q. And self-awareness?
18 A. My opinion is it may have elements of
19 it. I'm inconclusive in my opinion. CAN has no
20 position or opinion.
21 Q. Let us talk about new age. You say CAN
22 has no position whether Landmark Education
23 Corporation or the Forum is a destructive cult
24 under the new age category and it is your opinion
421
1 that it might be or elements might exist?
2 A. That's correct.
3 Q. What are the elements that might exist
4 that would put it into the new age category?
5 A. This is only my personal opinion. This
6 is not an opinion of the Cult Awareness Network.
Q. Well, you're a defendant in this case,
8 too, aren't you?
9 A. Yes. I'm just making it clear for the
10 record.
11 Q. So you're speaking for yourself as the
12 defendant, Cynthia Kisser?
13 A. Cynthia Kisser, the individual, not
14 Cynthia Kisser, the executive director, that's
15 right. I'm not speaking as an agent of the Cult
16 Awareness Network.
17 My personal opinion is that some of its
18 philosophical underpinnings are antithetical to the
19 Judaeo-Christian tradition which if that's true
20 would make it new age since new age is a belief
21 system that's antithetical to the Judaeo-Christian
22 tradition.
23 Q. Now, would you please tell me what
24 philosophical underpinnings you say exist in
422
1 Landmark Education Corporation or the Forum which
2 are antithetical to the Judaeo-Christian tradition?
3 A. I believe that the -- again, this is my
4 personal opinion -- that the stress on the amount
5 of control that one can take over one's own life is
6 in conflict with the Judaeo-Christian viewpoint on
7 the amount of control which God has over one's
8 life.
9 Q. And are there any other philosophical
10 underpinnings to which you referred which would put
11 it into the new age category maybe?
12 A. No.
13 Q. All right. The other area where you
14 said maybe was commercial. You said that Cult
15 Awareness Network took no position but that you
16 thought it might be a commercial destructive cult.
17 Would you explain that, please?
18 A. It's my understanding according to a
19 statement that was made by a person who identified
20 himself as an actual employee of Landmark that
21 Landmark is, A, a for-profit corporation and, B,
22 has over 4,000 volunteers. It seemed rather
23 remarkable to me that a for-profit corporation
24 could get 4,000 people to do volunteer work for it
423
1 without the possibility that there might not be
2 some undue influence exerted on those people.
3 That's one thing.
4 The second thing is it's my impression
5 that some people are given strong encouragement for
6 recruiting people, to also give money to this
7 for-profit corporation for its services, and that
8 they receive no commission for that and so in a
9 sense they become unpaid agents in that regard so
10 that not only are some of these people volunteering
11 their time, but some of these people are unpaid
12 sales agents for this for-profit corporation so
13 that's my personal opinion.
14 Q. Anything else?
15 A. No, not that I can think of.
16 Q. Now, with respect to the element
17 attributed to the new age destructive cult
18 category, would you tell me the basis of your
19 understanding that the philosophy emphasizes
20 control over one's life and that is antithetical to
21 the Judaeo-Christian tradition? What is the source
22 of your information?
23 A. The information in the public records.
24 Q. Have you ever attempted to find out
424
1 from Landmark Education Corporation whether your
2 understanding of its philosophical underpinnings is
3 accurate?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q., Would You tell me when you made that
6 attempt and to whom you made it?
7 A. Last year in 1994 1 attended a public
8 event offered by Landmark to entertain questions
9 from the public, and I asked a number of questions
10 at that public event some of which sought to
11 explore this area.
12 Q. That was 1994?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. Was there any other time that you
15 attempted to ascertain from Landmark the nature of
16 its philosophical underpinnings?
17 A. Not from an agent for Landmark as
18 opposed to a person who is an individual
19 participant who may not be the best qualified to
20 portray anything about the corporation.
21 Q. Let's talk about this public event in
22 1994. Where was it?
23 A. It was in Woodstock.
24 Q. Woodstock where?
436
I me, I would like it to cover the last five years,
2 '95, '94, '93, 192, 191, and '90.
3 MR. BEAL: Which information?
4 MR. LEAF: About the names and addresses of
5 the staff persons, full time and part-time, and the
6 names and addresses of the volunteers. With
respect to the volunteers, that's an item that we
8 were going to address to the court. With respect
9 to the staff, full and part-time that is an item
10 that you can furnish so I would like it for the
11 period from 1990 through for the staff, part-time
12 staff .
13 MR. BEAL: This is after the deposition
14 concludes? We're not in a position to provide it
15 now.
16 MR. LEAF: That's correct, sir.
17 BY MR. LEAF:
18 Q. With respect to whether Landmark
19 Education Corporation or the Forum is a
20 therapy/self-awareness destructive cult, you said
21 that CAN has no position but you think it might be
22 or it might not be?
23 A. I have not a conclusive opinion, but I
24 entertain the possibility it might be.
437
1 Q. Now, tell me about the possibility
2 you're entertaining. What elements of that
3 possibility are you entertaining?
4 A. I don't understand that question as
5 phrased.
6 Q. In the Landmark Education Corp. or the
7. Forum, what elements do you claim exist which might
8 put it into the therapy/self-awareness destructive
9 cult?
10 A. It's my opinion that the
11 representations made by people who are volunteers
12 advocating for it or paid staff advocating for it
13 that breakthroughs can occur that will enable one
14 to be more happy in some way in their life and the
15 way that the organization operates in regard to
16 those promises might put it in that category.
17 Q. How does the organization operate with
18 respect to those promises?
19 A. I think it's not completely open about
20 what is involved in -- what these individuals who
21 are making these representations actually engaged
22 in experiencing these breakthroughs so people
23 have this impression that these breakthroughs are
24 possible but they don't understand the technology,
438
I the exercises, the techniques, or however you want
2 to describe it,the mechanics that they will need
3 to participate and that information is withheld
4 from them until they enroll.
5 Q. Are you saying that what has brought
6 you to the opinion that Landmark Education
7 Corporation or the Forum might be a
8 therapy/self-awareness destructive cult is that the
9 organization does not tell potential participants
10 the technology for achieving breakthroughs?
11 A. No, that's not what I said.
12 Q. Okay. Would you read back the answer.
13 (WHEREUPON, the record was read
14 by the reporter as requested.)
15 BY MR. LEAF:
16 Q. Are there any other elements which you
17 say place Landmark Education Corporation or the
18 Forum into the possibility of being a destructive
19 cult in the therapy/self-awareness category?
20 A. It's my impression that fatigue is used
21 as an element. Based on the representation made by
22 the agent speaking at the event I attended, that
23 fatigue is used as an element that the person is
24 subjected to as part of this breakthrough
1 experience.
2 Q. And is that what the person who led the
3 event told you?
4 A. The person acknowledged that the hours
5 were long, and the person giving the testimony that
6 caused me to raise the question talked about having
7 their most significant breakthrough somewhere
8 around midnight. And then I got into a question
9 and answer since this was supposed to be somewhat
10 on education whether sleep -- the relationship of
11 sleep in terms of optimal learning and there was an
12 acknowledgment that yes, this person was
13 acknowledging that yes, they had limited sleep when
14 they had this breakthrough so there was some back
15 and forth on that and that's the basis of my
16 opinion.
17 Q. And that's the entire basis of your
18 opinion?
19 A. of my opinion on what now?
20 Q. Fatigue.
21 A. No, that's not the entire basis of my
22 opinion on fatigue.
23 Q. on what else do you base your opinion
24 on fatigue? Remember, this is in response to my
440
1 question were there any other elements and you said
2 yes, fatigue was used as an element in generating a
3 breakthrough.
4 A. Right.
5 Q. And I Asked you the basis of that and
6 you just told me what you told me, and I'm asking
if there is any other basis for the sources of your
8 information about fatigue?
9 A. Being an element to facilitate
10 breakthrough?
11 Q. Being an element in the
12 therapy/self-awareness destructive cult.
13 A. Well, I was answering in regard to -
14 my impression is based on, also, some reading from
15 the 4,000 -- from the public record file which is
16 included in the 4,000 or so documents.
17 Q. Are there any other elements which you
18 say may exist in Landmark Education Corporation or
19 the Forum from which you concluded may be a
20 destructive cult in the therapy/self-awareness
21 category?
22 A.- Yes. I believe there may be language
23 manipulation, purposeful language manipulation.
24 Q. Please explain that.
442
1 was not completely open with respect to the
2 technology, exercises, and techniques which
3 generate breakthroughs prior to participation, and
4 I'm not attempting to quote you exactly, secondly
5 was the purposeful language manipulation and the
6 third was fatigue used as an element in the
breakthrough. Is that generally the three areas
8 that you just covered?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Are there any others?
11 A. Well, it's my impression -
12 Q. Are there any others, yes or no?
13 A. In regard only to the therapy cult or
14 in regard to any of the three categories?
15 Q. In regard to elements of the
16 therapy/self-awareness destructive cult.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. What are they?
19 A. All right. This would apply to any of
20 these three categories that I voiced my opinion on,
21 but I also think there is a misrepresentation to
22 the public about what -- at least there has been as
23 1 observed it in my experience as to exactly what
24 Landmark is.
1 Q. And what is that misrepresentation?
2 A. The misrepresentation in my opinion was
3 made to the school district, School District 200
4 which is the school district that I am a taxpayer
5 in as to what Landmark was, and on the basis of the
6 misrepresentation, Landmark was allowed to use the
-4- facilities at my school without paying rent which
8 was the policy that any for-profit organization
9 must pay rent.
10 Additionally, a flyer was written up
11 which gave the impression that Landmark was a
12 nonprofit entity and school resources were used to
13 distribute the flyer to every child in the school
14 district, and every child in the school district
15 took this flyer home and there were people -- at
16 least one person in the school district staff
17 office who clearly knew exactly what Landmark was
18 and, nevertheless, this misrepresentation was
19 allowed to be widely published lies throughout the
20 whole district, and I thought that was very
21 deceptive.
22 Q. Where did this alleged
23 misrepresentation occur?
24 A. In School District 200.
445
1 school district.
2 Q. McHenry County?
3 A. The flyer was the flyer advertising the
4 event. Then there was a page or two of material
5 which appeared to be from Landmark and which the
6 superintendent of the school district told me was
7 from Landmark which described more about Landmark.
8 This was all on white and black paper. There is
9 not a slipcover brochure or anything like that, and
10 1 believe the flyer was one page. Then there was
11 the second page from the school district regretting
12 the circulation of the flyer through the children,
13 and then there was the document that the
14 superintendent provided me which was a two-page
15 document explaining something more about Landmark.
16 I was almost positive that was in with that 4,000
17 documents. If not, I can obtain it.
18 Q. I'd appreciate it. I will look again.FONT>
19 MR. BEAL: The problem is she can't get to
20 the office before -
21 THE WITNESS: Unless you want to delay the
22 deposition for an hour.
23 MR. LEAF: No, I don't want to delay it for
24 an hour, but perhaps we can get it by Thursday or
887
1 You had referred to a book entitled
2 "Outrageous Betrayal" as the basis of your opinion
3 that the est standard training and The Forum share
4 similar philosophical underpinnings.
5 Do you recall?
6 A. No, I don't, but I will take your word
7 for that.
8 Q. Okay. I just wanted to know whether
9 there was any other book or source than "Outrageous
10 Betrayal" which might have influenced you in your
11 opinion that the philosophical underpinnings
12 between the est standard training and The Forum are
13 similar?
14 A. Some of the documents in the public
15 record matter.
16 Q. But any other book?
17 A. Oh, book.
18 Not -- no.
19 MR. LEAF: All right. Off the record.
20 (WHEREUPON, discussion was had
21 off the record.)
22 BY MR. LEAF:
23 Q. I had asked you a number of questions
24 regarding your opinion and CAN's view as to whether
888
1 Landmark Education Corporation is a cult.
2 I want to now ask you some questions
3 regarding The Forum, which, as you know, is a
4 program delivered by Landmark Education
5 Corporation.
6 Do you, Cynthia Kisser, say that
7 Landmark -- that's not right -- that the Landmark
8 Forum is a cult?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Do you Cynthia Kisser as executive
11 director of the Cult Awareness Network say that
12 Landmark is a cult -- Landmark Forum is a cult?
13 A. No, no.
14 Q. So the Cult Awareness Network does not
15 hold Landmark Forum to be a cult.
16 A. It does not.
17 Q. Now, with respect to your individual
18 opinion first, do you say that the Landmark Forum
19 is a destructive cult?
20 A. No.
21 Q. And that's your personal opinion.
22 A. Correct.
23 Q. And does the Cult Awareness Network say
or hold the position that Landmark Forum is a
889.
1 destructive cult?
2 A No.
3 Q. So speaking in both your individual
4 capacity and as the executive director of the Cult
5 Awareness Network, you do not regard the Landmark
6 Forum as a cult -- oh, I'm sorry -- as a
7 destructive cult.
8 A. I don't take a position.
9 Q. Well, you -
10 A. Don't regard it, but don't not regard
11 it. There's no position on it.
12 Q. As far as the Cult Awareness Network is
13 concerned.
14 A. Exactly.
15 Q. And as far as you are concerned, you do
16 not regard the Landmark Forum, the program itself,
17 as a destructive cult.
is A. I do not.
19 Q. I have found a list of literature that
20 you had suggested to me in answer to my earlier
21 question. I believe that this is the list.
22 MR. MAKSYM: Do you want copies of those so
23 that you can have it marked or -- I can make
24 copies.
890
1 MR. LEAF: We don't need to make copies.
2 BY MR. LEAF:
3 Q. Is this the list you were referring to?
4 A. Correct.
5 Q. And would you please look at that list
6 and see if it refreshes your recollection regarding
7 any books that you read, let's say -- I will give
8 you the large number of years first so we don't
9 have to go through year by year -- between, say,
10 1980 and 1990 at any time -- well, I withdraw the
11 question.
12 Please look at the list and see if that
13 refreshes your recollection regarding your having
14 been influenced by any of those books at any time
15 regarding your opinion about the similarity of the
16 philosophical underpinnings between the est
17 standard training and The Forum.
18 (WHEREUPON, there was a short
19 interruption.)
20 BY THE WITNESS:
21 A. Excluding the books I have already
22 mentioned, I don't see any other books on this
23 list.
24 BY MR. LEAF:
891
1 Q. Okay. Thank you.
2 MR. LEAF: I think it's probably wise to mark
3 this for identification.
4 Is there any reason I shouldn't mark the
5 original, this one?
6 MR. MAKSYM: What's that?
7 I'm sorry.
8 MR. LEAF: Is there any reason I shouldn't
9 mark this, I mean the original?
10 MR. MAKSYM: No, I see no reason not to.
11 MR. LEAF: All right. Please mark this.
12 (WHEREUPON, a document was marked
13 Kisser Deposition Exhibit No. 12,
14 for identification, as of 5/19/95.)
15 BY MR. LEAF:
16 Q. Have you ever informed anyone that the
17 Landmark Forum is a cult?
18 A. No.
19 Q. And do you know -- withdrawn.
20 Has the Cult Awareness Network ever, to
21 your knowledge, informed anyone that the Landmark
22 Forum is a cult?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Just so that I can include other
892
1 possibilities, would your answer be the same if I
2 used the word "destructive" cult?
3 A. My answer would be the same.
4 Q. Yes.
5 Would your answer be the same if I used
6 the word "cultic" or "cult-like"?
7 A. I don't know.
8 Q. Do you make a distinction between
9 cultic, cult-like, and cult?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Have you ever informed anyone or told
12 anyone that the Landmark Forum is cultic or
13 cult-like?
14 A. I don't know.
15 Q_ Well, is it your opinion personally that
16 the Landmark Forum is cultic or cult-like?
17 And I'm only speaking about the program
18 itself.
19 A. That it might be.
20 Q. Okay. Is it your opinion that it might
21 not be cultic or cult-like?
22 A. I'm not conclusive that it might not
23 be.
24 That's the best answer I can give you.
893 -
1 Q. Well, I don't accept that as the best
2 answer, so I will pursue it a little bit further.
3 Is it your opinion that the Landmark
4 Forum might be cultic or cult-like?
5 MR. BEAL: Well, isn't that word for word your
6 previous question?
7 MR. LEAF: Well, no. She said that
8 MR. BEAL: Two questions back.
9 MR. LEAF: Yes.
10 It was her answer that it might be.
11 Okay. And now I'm going to ask her whether -- if
12 it's her view that it might be, is it not also her
13 view that it might not be.
14 MR. BEAL: Perhaps you could phrase the
15 question, since you answered affirmative when I
16 asked you -
17 MR. LEAF: All right. Fair enough.
18 BY MR. LEAF:
19 Q. Since you have testified that, in your
20 opinion, the Landmark Forum might be cultic or
21 cult-like, is it not equally true that the Landmark
22 Forum, in your opinion, might not be cultic or
23 cult-like?
24 A. Yes.
894
I Q. Do you know whether the Cult Awareness
2 Network has ever stated or informed anyone that the
3 Landmark Forum is cultic or cult-like?
4 A. I don't know.
5 Q. Are you saying that, as far as you know,
6 the Cult Awareness Network may have informed
7 someone or stated that the Landmark Forum is cultic
8 or cult-like?
9 A. I'm saying I have no knowledge.
10 Q. You have no knowledge whether they did
11 or did not.
12 A. Right.
13 Q They may have.
14 A. I'm not aware, so I guess my answer
15 would be no, then, technically.
16 Q. Yes.
17 A. Fine.
18 No.
19 Q. All right. Just so that the question
20 and answer come together, do you have any knowledge
21 as to whether the Cult Awareness Network has ever
22 stated or informed anyone that the Landmark Forum
23 is cultic or cult-like?
24 MR. BEAL: Could we have that repeated? There
895
1 might be a problem at the beginning of the
2 question.
3 MR LEAF: Yes
4 MR. BEAL: I was -- could I have the question
5 read.
6 (WHEREUPON, the record was read
7 by the reporter as requested.)
8 BY THE WITNESS:
9 A. No.
10 MR. LEAF: Please read the question and answer
11 back.
12 (WHEREUPON, the record was read
13 by the reporter as requested.)
14 BY MR. LEAF:
15 Q. Is it your opinion that the Landmark
16 Forum has harmful effects?
17 MR. BEAL: Continue.
18 MR. LEAF: That's the question.
19 MR. BEAL: Oh, I'm sorry.
20 MR. LEAF: We will have the question read,
21 please.
22 MR. BEAL: I didn't hear it as -- I didn't
23 hear it as the end of the sentence.
24 MR. LEAF: That's all right.
896
1 Please read it back.
2 (WHEREUPON, the record was read
3 by the reporter as requested.)
4 BY THE WITNESS:
5 A. Personal opinion, Kisser?
6 BY MR. LEAF:
7 Q. Yes.
8 A. I can't answer that yes or no.
9 MR. BEAL: Counsel, that's an awfully vague
10 question the way it's phrased. I mean -
11 MR. LEAF: Can you suggest how to make it less
12 vague?
13 MR. BEAL: Because the way it's phrased is
14 are we talking about does it always have harmful
15 effects on everyone who takes it, does it ever
16 have -- has it ever had any harmful effect on
17 anyone who has ever taken it?
18 BY THE WITNESS:
19 A. Might it have a harmful effect?
20 MR. BEAL: We are on the record.
21 MR. LEAF: Well, I wasn't asking those
22 questions. I wasn't asking those questions. They
23 are fine questions to ask, but I asked a different
24 one.
897
1 Let me have my question read back and
2 listen to it.
3 (WHEREUPON, the record was read
4 by the reporter as requested.)
5 MR. LEAF: And the answer was?
6 (WHEREUPON, the record was read
7 by the reporter as requested.)
8 BY MR. LEAF:
9 Q. It seems to be a question that could be
10 answered yes or no.
11 (WHEREUPON, discussion was had
12 off the record between the witness
13 and her counsel outside the
14 hearing of other counsel and the
15 court reporter.)
16 BY THE WITNESS:
17 A. All right. My personal opinion, that
18 Landmark Forum -- my personal opinion is that yes,
19 it has harmful effects.
20 BY MR. LEAF:
21 Q. Now, would you please tell me what
22 harmful effects you claim you say that the
23 Landmark Forum has.
24 A. It's my opinion
898
1 Q - Yes.
2 A. -- that under certain circumstances it
3 can be harmful for certain people who take it.
4 Q. I'm trying to ask you a factual question
5 and I believe you are giving me a theoretical
6 answer. Anything can under circumstances be
7 something.
8 I'm asking you whether -- now I'm asking
9 you what harmful effects you say the Landmark Forum
10 has since you have said that, in your opinion, it
11 does have harmful effects.
12 A Correct
13 And it's an opinion, an opinion. Okay.
14 And the opinion is that for certain people it has
15 harmful effects when some of the techniques which
16 we have discussed already on the record are
17 implemented.
18 Q. Now, do you know of anyone
19 withdrawn.
20 Now, as I understand your answer, you
21 are saying -- you are not saying that it may have
22 harmful effects, you are saying it does have
23 harmful effects.
24 Am I understanding your answer
899
1 correctly?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Okay. Are you saying that under certain
4 circumstances the Landmark Forum could have harmful
5 effects or may have harmful effects?
6 A. Exactly.
7- Q. But you cannot say with any degree of
a certainty that it does have harmful effects, can
9 you?
10 A. I can't say that for every person who
11 takes it, no, that is correct.
12 Q. Does the Cult Awareness Network say that
13 the Landmark Forum has harmful effects?
14 A. No.
15 Q. All right. Has the Cult Awareness
16 Network through any of its staff ever informed,
17 advised, or told any member of the media or any
18 author or intended author that the Landmark Forum
19 is a cult or a destructive cult or has harmful
20 effects?
21 (WHEREUPON, discussion was had
22 off the record between the witness
23 and her counsel outside the
24 hearing of other and the
900
1 court reporter.)
2 MR. LEAF: Off the record.
3 (WHEREUPON, discussion was had
4 off the record.)
5 MR. LEAF: Read it back, please.
6 (WHEREUPON, the record was read
7- by the reporter as requested.
a BY THE WITNESS:
9 A. No.
10 BY MR. LEAF:
11 Q. Has the Cult Awareness Network ever
12 informed any governmental agency in this country or
13 elsewhere that the Landmark Forum is a cult or a
14 destructive cult or has harmful effects?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Has the Cult Awareness Network ever
17 informed any member -- withdrawn.
18 Okay. Now, I have also asked you about
19 your opinion regarding Werner Erhard as a cult
20 leader, and I believe you told me that was your
21 opinion.
22 MR. BEAL: Well, she has told you what she has
23 told you.
24 MR. LEAF: Yes.
901.
1 Okay. Off the record.
2 (WHEREUPON, discussion was had
3 off the record.)
4 BY MR. LEAF:
5 Q. Has the Cult Awareness Network ever told
6 anyone -- ever said to anyone or given information
7 to anyone that Werner Erhard was a cult leader?
8 A. No.
9 Q. And I take it - it is your opinion that -
10 personal opinion that Werner Erhard, in fact, was a
11 cult leader.
12 A. Yes
13 Q. What was the cult of which Werner Erhard
14 was a cult leader?
15 A. The cult he created.
16 Q. Yes.
17 But what was that called? What was it
18 called?
19 A. I don't know that it had a name.
20 Q. Did it have members?
21 A. It had followers, supporters.
22 Q. And those followers -- how do you know
23 it had followers?
24 A. It's my opinion that it had followers.
902
I Q. Could you describe what you mean by a
2 follower a follower in that answer?
3 A. A follower, is that the word, a
4 follower?
5 Q. A follower.
6 A. A follower would be -- in connection
7 with that answer that I gave in response-to that
8 question on the record, a follower would be an
9 individual who is sufficiently devoted to the
10 leader that he would -- he or she would put the
11 goals and the interest of the leader or the
12 leader's movement over and above his or her
13 personal goals and -- that would suffice.
14 Q. Now, that's a theoretical answer, yes?
15 It's a definition, yes?
16 A. Well, it's my answer, so
17 Q. Right.
18 Specifically, do you know of any such
19 person who was, in your opinion, a follower of
20 Mr. Erhard's cult?
21 A. Charlene Afremow.
22 Q. Do you know of any other persons?
23 A. One of Werner Erhard's wives.
24 Q. Okay.
903
I A. This is my opinion.
2 Q. Okay. Yes.
3 Do you know of any other persons?
4 A. Not by name as I sit here now that I can
5 recollect.
6 Q. Okay. So as of the moment, the only two
7 followers of Werner Erhard's cult that you say you
8 know of is Charlene Afremow and one of Werner
9 Erhard's wives?
10 A. By name, yes.
11 Q. Now, did Werner Erhard's -- does this
12 wife have a -- would this wife be named Ellen
13 Erhard?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Have you ever been in communication with
16 Ellen Erhard?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Have you ever called her or spoken with
19 her or has she ever called you or spoken with you?
20 A No.
21 Q. Have you ever communicated with her in
22 writing or in any other form?
23 A. No.
24 Q. And has she ever communicated with you
904
1 in writing or in any other form?
2 A . No .
3 Q. Now, have you spoken with Charlene
4 Afremow?
5 A. Directly, no.
6 Q. Have you ever been in written or oral
7. communication directly with Charlene Afremow?
8 A. I'm not sure.
9 Q. okay. Is there some way you can refresh
10 your recollection?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And how could you refresh your
13 recollection?
14 A. Check with Andrew Wilson.
15 Q. Okay. Would you please refresh your
16 recollection?
17 A. I can I t .
18 Q. You can't.
19 A. He's an attorney of record in a case
20 that I'm a defendant in. I can't.
21 MR. LEAF: Off the record.
22 (WHEREUPON, discussion was had
23 off the record.)
24 BY MR. LEAF:
905
I Q. All right. Is there any other way you
2 could refresh your recollection than by speaking
3 with Andy Wilson?
4 A. No.
5 Q. You have no -- withdrawn.
6 Would this refreshment -
7-= MR. MAKSYM: This is too good.
8 BY MR. LEAF:
9 Q. Would this refreshment inform you about
10 an oral communication or written communication?
11 A. oral and possibly written.
12 Oh, there is one other way. Wait.
13 No, no. That would not -- no. That's
14 not conclusive. No. There is no other way.
15 Q. Okay. So Andy Wilson would be able to
16 tell you that you spoke with her?
17 A. He may.
18 Q. He may.
19 And he also may be able to tell you that
20 there was some written communication between you
21 and her.
22 A. He may, right.
23 Q. Would you have a copy of that
24 communication if there was one?
906
1 A. If I did, it would have been turned over
2 to you with the documents already provided to you.
3 Q. And if you didn't, it would have been
4 destroyed or shredded.
5 A. Or didn't exist.
6 Q. Or didn't exist.
7. A. Yes, yes, yes. If it -- yes.
8 Q. So do you have any recollection of
9 Charlene Afremow telling you that Werner Erhard was
10 a cult leader?
11 A. Her or some agent for her.
12 No. That he was specifically a cult
13 leader, no. Not those specific words, no.
14 Q. I take it that at some point Charlene
15 Afremow -- withdrawn.
16 Have you ever been informed by any of
17 Mr. Erhard's wives or in particular Ellen Erhard
18 that Mr. Erhard was a cult leader?
19 A. No.
20 Q. And do you know of any other persons
21 that you might identify as a follower of
22 Mr. Erhard's cult?
23 A. Not without refreshing my recollection
24 by looking at my public records.
907
1 Q. All right. I ask you to refresh your
2 recollection, look at the public records, and I
3 will ask 'that question again after you have had an
4 opportunity to refresh your recollection.
5 A. That would not be possible today,
6 though, you understand that.
7 Q. Yes. I understood that.
8 MR. LEAF: Off the record.
9 (WHEREUPON, discussion was had
10 off the record.)
11 BY MR. LEAF:
12 Q. Has the Cult Awareness Network ever said
13 or do they say now that the Landmark Forum is a
14 mind control group?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Or a mind control program?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Does the Cult Awareness Network say or
19 has it ever said that any of the programs, courses,
20 seminars, or events presented or marketed by
21 Landmark Education Corporation is a cult?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Or a destructive cult?
24 A. No.
908
1 Q. or a mind control group?
2 A. No.
3 Q. or harmful or destructive in any way?
4 A. I don't know.
5 Q. "I don't know" means that they may have
6 said that and you don't know?
7 You realize I am asking you about the
8 Cult Awareness Network.
9 A. Right.
10 But I don't -- I don't know.
11 Q. Okay. You don't know -
12 A. I can't answer definitively yes. I
13 can't answer definitively no.
14 Q. Okay. As to what part of the question
15 can you not answer definitively?
16 A. Harmful in any way.
17 Q. Okay. As to the rest of the adjectives,
18 can you answer definitively yes or no?
19 A. Could you read the other adjectives.
20 Q. Yes.
21 MR. LEAF: Please.
22 (WHEREUPON, the record was read
23 by the reporter as requested.)
24 BY MR. LEAF:
909
1 Q. Okay. And are you saying "I don't know"
2 as to harmful or "I don't know" as to destructive
3 or "I don't know" as to both?
4 A. I don't know as to harmful.
5 Q. Okay. So do you know as to whether the
6 Cult Awareness Network has ever said or says now
7 that any of the programs, courses, seminars, or
8 events presented or marketed by Landmark Education
9 Corporation is destructive?
10 A. No.
11 Q. You are saying no, that they do not,
12 they do not -- they have not said that, they do not
13 say it.
14 A. Correct.
15 Q. And just for the purpose of clarity, it
16 is your answer that you do not know whether the
17 Cult Awareness Network has ever said or says now
18 that any of its programs, courses, seminars, or
19 events presented by Landmark Education Corporation
20 is harmful.
21 A. Correct.
22 Q. Is it your testimony that -- sorry.
23 Withdrawn.
24 Does Cult Awareness Network know whether
910
1 the Landmark Forum is a cult or destructive cult?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Does the Landmark -- sorry.
4 Does the Cult Awareness Network know
5 whether est is a cult or a destructive cult?
6 MR. BEAL: Is?
7 MR. LEAF: Is or has been.
8 Thank you.
9 BY THE WITNESS:
10 A. I don't know.
11 BY MR. LEAF:
12 Q. Does the Cult Awareness Network know
13 whether The Hunger Project International is a cult
14 or a destructive cult?
15 A. Is, no.
16 Q_ Or ever has been?
17 A. I don't know.
18 Q. Do you know whether the Cult Awareness
19 Network has ever determined that the Landmark Forum
20 or that Landmark Education has engaged in any
21 illegal or unethical practices?
22 THE WITNESS: Could I have that one back,
23 please.
24 (WHEREUPON, the record was read
911
1 by the reporter as requested.)
2 BY MR. LEAF:
3 Q. That's Landmark Education Corporation.
4 A. Can you define "determined"?
5 Q. No. I would like you to answer the
6 question to the best of your ability.
7 THE WITNESS: Okay. Could you repeat that
8 question, then.
9 (WHEREUPON, the record was read
10 by the reporter as requested.)
11 BY THE WITNESS:
12 A. Yes.
13 BY MR. LEAF:
14 Q. And what has it determined?
15 A. That it has.
16 Q. Can you tell me in what manner it
17 arrived at its determination that the Landmark
18 Forum or Landmark Education Corporation engaged in
19 any illegal or unethical practices?
20 A. Based on an examination of information
21 provided to it by Cynthia Kisser, the original
22 the individual.
23 Q. Now, other than receiving information
24 from its executive director, has the Cult Awareness