Brother, are you Saved?

An a.f.l. inquiry into the salvation meme complex

Subject: Re: connections, minor breakthrough
From: emurf@yahoo.com
Date: 1997/10/27
Message-ID: <877999437.26921@dejanews.com>
Newsgroups: alt.fan.landmark
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[TRANSLATIONS FROM CORPORATE INDOCTRINATION TO RELIGIOUS INDOCTRINATION
APPEAR IN BRACKETS, with apologies to Rick]

lellington@earthlink.net wrote:

I guess the heart of my reservation can be summed up with a question to those who have been involved in [church]-work longer: Is it possible to be [saved] and still not be completely in support of introducing others to [Christ], or deciding not to do more [church]-work?

It seems to me that every reservation I have in these issues is dealt with, by people at the [church] (both staff and volunteers) as an expression of a [satanic influence]. This bothers me.

Awhile ago, I got into a discussion on this ng with some people regarding [the church] and doctrines, indoctrination, etc. I defended the position that [church] does not instill a set of "doctrines" into [Bible students], and that any such claims are not so easy to defend as they seem.

However, this approach regarding [those who have not yet heard the word of Jesus] and continued [witnessing for Christ] seems to suggest to me that maybe a sort of meta-doctrine is in place: Anybody who [really believes in Jesus and is genuinely saved] will necessarily be in support of others doing [Bible study], and in support of themselves continuing [church]-work.

Although never expressed in this way, there seems often to be such an underlying assumption.

It is quite possible that all of my objections and considerations have, in fact, arisen out of some deeply imbedded [plot of Satan's], and thus the responses I usually get. Yet often the responses seem to be like scripts learned by salesmen in overcoming objections, objection a= response a, bothersomely similar, and as if by memorization.

Any help at all in this area would be appreciated, even in the form of [witnessing], by email or otherwise.


I should also make clear that I loved my own experience of [letting Jesus into my heart], and plan on at least going through [Advanced Bible Study].

    Rick's post that was used for the translation.

Subject: Re: connections, minor breakthrough
From: Rick Hartman/Lani Ellington <lellington@earthlink.net>
Date: 1997/10/26 Message-ID: <3452F058.13D4@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: alt.fan.landmark
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RINGO8553 wrote:

Just completed 3rd day of Advanced course, and while I should definitely reserve judgement until tomorrow night, todays program consisted of an hour of rightous people decideing what we should do with the three late ones, and many hours of instruction on how to sell the Forum to the guests we have to invite to keep them going.
While I entered with an open mind, today was a complete turnoff. Our co-leaders were rarely in the room at the same time, and by the end of the evening, the theme was still "dont let your baggage from the past interfere with creating a future" Well, guess what? I got that from an introdutory meeting for the Forum, I didnt have to go to the Advanced course to get that. More later,
maybe i'll be converted.

Rick replies:

I had the same reaction to the very last part of the Forum, and decided not to go to that Tuesday night pep rally. This is still my main reservation with the programs at LEC. I'd be very interested in hearing your take on the rest of the Advanced Course, as I'm going to one on Thursday.

I guess the heart of my reservation can be summed up with a question to those who have been involved in the course-work longer: Is it possible to be authentic and still not be completely in support of introducing others to the Forum, or deciding not to do more course-work?

It seems to me that every reservation I have in these issues is dealt with, by people at the center (both staff and volunteers) as an expression of a racket. This bothers me. Awhile ago, I got into a discussion on this ng with some people regarding LEC and doctrines, indoctrination, etc. I defended the position that LEC does not instill a set of "doctrines" into Forum participants, and that any such claims are not so easy to defend as they seem. However, this approach regarding guests and continued enrollment seems to suggest to me that maybe a sort of meta-doctrine is in place: Anybody who is being authentic in their self-expression will necessarily be in support of others doing the Forum, and in support of themselves continuing the course-work. Although never expressed in this way, there seems often to be such an underlying assumption.

It is quite possible that all of my objections and considerations have, in fact, arisen out of some deeply imbedded racket, and thus the responses I usually get. Yet often the responses seem to be like scripts learned by salesmen in overcoming objections, objection a= response a, bothersomely similar, and as if by memorization.

Any help at all in this area would be appreciated, even in the form of coaching, by email or otherwise.

I should also make clear that I loved my own experience of the Forum, and plan on at least going through SELP.

Rick

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